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NEWTON J. HEUBERGER: My name is Newton Heuberger. I commanded Company F 399th, 100th division during World War II. I went to the University of Florida, and while I was at the University of Florida I was in ROTC. I finished the University of Florida in 1940. And when you got your degree, you were automatically a second lieutenant. That was a commission in the army. I never thought I would ever use it. I didn't think of the war or anything else. DAVID ELIOT STEIN: How was that in relation to a standard private? NJH: You can get commission by going to West Point or you get a commission by going to ROTC. And then they had an OCS program. That's Officer's Training School. Then you can have straight appointments. So that's how you get your commission. DES:: So, you were a high ranking officer? NJH: No, I was a second lieutenant then. After I finished the University of Florida, I was looking for a job. And I started working for Swift and Company as a trainee. Now that was 1940. That was about September. I worked for Swift and Company and on the 7th of December, 1941, the Japs hit Hawaii. My boss called me in and said, "You have a commission, don't you." And I said, "Yeah." And he said, "Well, you'll probably be going to the army pretty soon." I said, "No way, the war will be over in 6 months." Well, on the 22nd of December of '41, I got my call. I had this letter in the mail that said, "You report to Fort Benning on the 3rd of January of '42, to go to Officer's Training School", which was a basic course. That started my career in the military that lasted 26 years. That's how I got in. I went to the training center at Camp Cross, South Carolina. I went through the school, and then they sent me to a division. And I took a rifle company over. I was a captain. I went through training at the training center in the part of Tennessee that's about 50 miles wide in the width of Tennessee. And what we did, we fought up there from November of '43 until April. Actually, the environment was more severe because we were there during the winter. I had chilblains in my feet, which were where your perspiration on your feet when you walked if you didn't take your socks off ,you would get ice on the bottom of your feet. Well, it was so cold, I had chillblains. DES: Does that cause frostbit? NJH: No, that's not frostbite. Frostbite is something that I had over in Europe. Chillblains are just moisture in socks when you don't take your socks off. And then, if you leave your socks on and don't really take care of your feet, that's when you get frostbite. And that's where you can loose the whole foot. For instance, I had my left foot frozen. Luckily, they always gave us either two or three pairs of socks. And you put the socks around [under your cloths around your waist]. Never washed them, but keep them around [your waist] to keep them warm. And you change your socks. Then you would massage your feet to keep them active. Sometimes we were in a foxhole. We would dig it and we might be in that position for a week. And the water would get in the bottom. And your feet would go ahead and get wet. And that's when you would get frostbite. I lost a lot of people from frostbite. DES: When did you go over to Europe? NJH: We finished in that maneuver area in Tennessee. DES: That was still part of the training . . . NJH: Yeah, that was still part of the training. We found out about it secretly that we getting ready to leave. That was in August of '44. We were given khaki uniforms, so we thought, "We're going to the South Pacific." And this is all part of the big game that they played. And they put us on a troop train. And we went by troop train up into Ohio and then over to Virginia and around. They had us all confused where we were going to go. We went out to Camp Kilmer in New Jersey. There they changed our uniforms to all wool. We had to give all of our suntan stuff back. And we were on the ship in September. It took us 15 days to go over, because they had a big convoy. There were about 20 ships in that convoy. And we landed in . . . , well you see, we thought then we were going to go up to England and go into the North where we were already penetrated. But, we didn't. Our troops that were in Italy could not break through the German line. They had a very difficult time. The Germans on a hill, would fortify it. They were really clever about it. So what they did. Rather than put us in Italy, we invaded in Marseilles, France. DES: Then, this was . . . NJH: You're talking about October of '44. DES: How much after D-Day was this? NJH: D-Day was in June. [American troops] were coming in the top in France from England across the Channel. We were assigned to go up from the bottom. DES: So were you invading fresh territory? There was no American penetration in Marseilles? NJH: In Marseilles. Yes, that was all German. We went into Marseilles and went up the Rhone valley. We had tanks and we had trucks, and we may go twenty miles and then the Germans would stop us. They would fortify, and, of course, we would be fighting our way through. Pretty soon we would break through and then they would take off again. And then they would fortify another place. So, we went up the Rhone valley and we went to Lyon and then we went interior. I forget when our actual day, first day in combat was, because we were piecemeal. We relieved the 45th division and the 3rd division. They put a company in here and a company over there and a company over there.. That was the way we got indoctrinated, piecemeal. Within about a week of the time we went into the interior, the whole division was committed. DES: Was the army's plan to eventually have all troops converge on Paris? NJH: Well, no. The idea was the northern invasion, they came down and one area went up into Belgium and Holland. The British were up there. And then the other area went into Alsace-Lorraine area. The other area swung out and took Paris. But, Paris was not critical to the operation. The critical thing was to get to Germany as fast as possible. The Germans did a very good job of holding us up. DES: At this point, you were leading a rifle company. How many troops were in a company? NJH: When we left the states, we had a strength of 212 men. DES: You were the leading officer of these 212 men? NJH: That's right. I had a platoon, a platoon, a platoon of riflemen. And then a weapons platoon. Included machine guns and mortars. DES: What particular memories do you have about the invasion first of Marseilles and then your march across the southern part of Europe into the German lines. NJH: When we can ashore in Marseilles, basically, there the 45th and the 3rd division had already cleared it out. We were the first division that came ashore that we had to go ahead and take all of our vehicles off. Our vehicles were in crates. Mechanics and anyone who was mechanically inclined went down to the port and unloaded these trucks and put them together. So we put our own vehicles and all of our combat weapons were given to us after we landed. DES: You were the first division or the first company to come that was preparing for the march inward? As opposed to the actual invasion. NJH: Yes, the actual invasion. They had to come in on LST, Landing Ships and Tanks, etc. they went ashore. The crust in that area of protection was cleaned out before we got there. We had to go ashore and come back. We were there for about 7 to 8 days putting our vehicles together, and then we moved interior. The bad part of this, the first month and a half, it rained, I would say, every day. We were soaking wet all the time. It was miserable. DES: You all were wearing heavy wool uniforms? NJH: Yes, thank goodness we had that. The main things we had were our raincoats and that was it. We had no sleeping bags or anything else. You slept in your clothes. I remember the first 19 weeks of combat, I never had a chance to even take a bath. With the C-rations we had, the Germans would tell us, "We can smell you guys 200 feet away." And I can believe it, because we didn't have a chance to get cleaned up. As a company commander, I had some men go back, that I sent back, for showers. When you went to showers, you just gave your cloths up and said what size you have and you got a whole new set. They put them in these big steam laundries. You just put everything away. It was miserable. It really was. Climatically, it was miserable. DES: Describe the average day after you landed and assembled your vehicles and what else?. NJH: When you get a rifle at first, you've got to zero it in. So we had a range and that range was just out in the open and they put targets up and we zeroed our weapons that way. DES: Calibrated the sights? NJH: That's right. And we went on short hikes back and forth. Speed hikes and things like that so we wouldn't get stale. DES: Build up stamina? NJH: Yeah. DES: What did a C-ration consist of? NJH: A C-ration is a can [about 3 to 4 inches high] with pork and beans, that was one of the favorites. The corn beef hash was not a favorite. They had a chicken ration and a couple more. But the favorite was . . . we used to trade back and forth. And the other can that came with it was a biscuit can, which had biscuits in and had a little bit of jelly. And here's something that a lot of people don't know. In each on of those biscuit cans, the tobacco companies of the United States gave a little package of four cigarettes. I never smoked. I got cured of that early in life. But, people started smoking cigarettes. DES: Given to them free. NJH: Given to them free. They had the cigarettes and after the war . . . DES: Everyone comes back addicted. NJH: Well . . . cigarettes for us over there were only 5 cents a pack. But, they brought the habit back and the wife in a lot of cases, in many, many cases, became addicted to tobacco. And see, that's what you look at and think, man, this thing was just . . . you'd wonder about the tobacco habit and that's where a lot of people got started. That's the can with the biscuits and then the can, the major issue. Sometimes, what you'd do, if you had a vehicle, you put that can of meat over the exhaust system. Break the top and put a couple of holes, so it wouldn't blow up, but of course if you put it in there without putting the holes in the top . . . So you could do it that way or you had little heat tabs, you put them cans on top to heat the food that way. DES: This is how you'd heat the food. NJH: Yeah. If the mess hall brought C-rations, sometimes they didn't have any food to cook, they brought C-rations, they brought a burner and they brought a GI can, a metal garbage can and they'd put water in it and what you'd do is put the C-ration in there. DES: Put the can in the water and take it out and eat 'em. NJH: Yeah. DES: After these first weeks of organizing the troops in Marseilles, what was your next mission? NJH: Then we started moving up the Rhone valley. It is almost in the middle of the southern part of France. It goes up north. The roads go back and forth over the Rhone valley. The valley spreads out. It's a wide valley in some places, and in some places it is a very close. Then, we went on up and the division committed some combat. From the latter part of October until December, we were able to move. Then, we became stationed in an area where we had to dig in, dig our own holes. We stayed in that area from about January of '45 until March 15, we were stabilized in trench warfare, so to speak. DES: Your company would dig in a particular location. You would dig a trench? NJH: Well, we would dig foxholes. You know, we put logs over the top of holes and that kind of thing. And what we did, you see, the organization is a company, but that company is part of a battalion. The battalion has 3 rifle companies and one weapons company that had mortars and machine guns. You would go forward and we dug these installations, fortified positions. We would stay there for maybe 10 days. Then, they would pull us back and they put one of the other battalions or company in our area and they would let us go back for 2 or 3 days to get cleaned up. They had mobile showers. DES: You would spend 10 days fighting on the front line. Then, they would move you back for 3 or 4 days in which case you would then be moved forward? NJH: No, then we would come back and occupy another area that was dug in by another company. DES: This was slow progress? NJH: Yes, it was stationary. We would set out on patrols at night and to capture the Germans if we could find them. Sometimes they would fire artillery at us and we would fire artillery at them. There were all kinds of fighting going on. But, no movement so to speak. DES: Were a lot of soldiers lost in these foxholes? NJH: Yes. Near the end of the war, I made nineteen battlefield commissions out of my company. In other words, they said, "You have some good NCO's that would make good officers." I had nineteen of those guys. Just before we went overseas, the air force had thousands of men they were training to be pilots, or to be in the air force. In about the middle of 1944, the air force realized and some of our masterminds realized that the war was not going to last as long as they thought. They saw victory coming. The landing on the continent revealed this. So they took those guys who were in college, they were all college people. They were good people, a high specimen of a man. And they took them out of the air force and sent them to the army to be basic soldiers. I had a lot of those guys. That's why the caliber . . . For instance, I had 4 of 'em or 5 of 'em that I made officers from the ESTP, that was the program. One of them went into the AG, which is Adjutant General Corps. He ended up retiring as a full colonel, the same as I was. I had 4 of us that were in the company that were full colonels. He has done research on the men in the company. He's been trying to find these guys, so . . . DES: These are all men in your company? NJH: Right. You can see [on this sheet]. These are men's names that are deceased, when they died, etc. You can see here, "Total number of company F 399th is 503 men." So I went through three companies of men because of frostbite, because of wounded, because of being captured, etc. He's gone all the way through this and broken then down. He said, "Located and still living: 138. Deceased: 214. Not located" he's still looking for 151 of them . . . All their names are one here. He periodically does most of this on computer and runs the totals down. He's sending this to every living man of company F 399th, that I was in, to see if they can help him locate the [missing men]. That's what he's been doing for the last 2 years. DES: So of a total of 503 men, about half of them are deceased in the line of fire or . . . ? NJH: Either deceased, wounded and never came back, or captured. For instance, every year at the reunion, I go to a reunion every year, of all the men. The last 10 years or so, every time one of these guys that was captured that I haven't seen since 1944 in combat. Here he is. He learned about the reunion. And he comes here. Of course, we all get around and say, "Well, when did you go," "What happened to you," etc. It's very interesting because they bring back many memories and many tears, you know. They come in, and the nice thing about it, they tell, "Oh, I know so and so. He's over in Texas." I had some Indians, a lot of Indians, about eight Indians. I mean real Indians. DES: Native Americans? NJH: Yeah, native Americans, yeah. So that's what he's doing. He's running these things down. DES: In the foxhole, what were the conditions? I am just trying to get a picture of what it was like. NJH: The Germans did something that had a psychological effect on us. They did this all over. American soldiers are inclined to be negligent at times. Normally, we had two men in a foxhole, sometimes three. The Germans at night would come in. It scared you to think that this would happen. But, they would take one man out of the foxhole while the other was sleeping, and leave the guy. They wouldn't kill him, just leave him there. The next morning, you can imagine, you would say "Gee, Joe was right here last night." They came and got him. That really blows your morale. DES: Don't want to sleep after that? NJH: You have that happen and you don't go to sleep anymore. So there was a lot of that. A lot of times, they would take both of them and capture them. Of course, we would go over and try to do the same thing to them. But that has a tremendous morale effect. We were in an area that snowed. We had at one time, about 5 feet of snow. DES: Covering your foxhole? NJH: We would bring shelter halves up to protect it. Of course, you had to be able to look out and watch all the time. And we throw the shelter half back and shake the snow off, and put it back on. DES: That must be freezing and miserable. NJH: Yes, it was freezing weather, miserable. On our patrols that would go out, the German's made little boxes they called shoe mines. They were made out of wood and glued together. No nails, so you couldn't detect them. When you stepped on of those, you blew one leg off or both legs off, or the bottom part of your body. Or, the glass mines that were about the same size, they put those out. When the Germans fortified a position, they put shoe mines all the way across the front. You had to know or you had to be lucky enough to figure out where you could go without stepping on a shoe mine. That was bad. When we moved out on March 15, we had to go ahead and clear the areas. And what they did, they didn't dig in the snow for them. So they put these shoe mines on the top of the snow. Of course, the snow in on night would cover them over. They couldn't put them more deep because they would have frozen them, but they had to have up near the top. So what we did in my area, I had 4 tanks assigned to me when I took off. I set the tanks to go ahead of us because the shoe mines don't blow a track off. But, a tank mine will blow a track off. The tank would move forward and I told the men, "You walk in those tracks because they would blow the mines away." The problem was that you were a perfect shot if your in a column like that. DES: For a sniper. NJH: Yeah or from the German lines because they knew we were coming forward. That's the way we penetrated. Of course, when we broke out, they didn't put mines. Periodically, in the forest or in the tacks, they would anchor these shoe mines around and put dirt over the top. So you always had the fear of stepping on a shoe mine or a mine. You always had that fear, all over. Oddly enough, in Germany, they have cleaned up all the debris and everything else from the war. But in some areas of France, they still haven't cleaned up. DES: Do they still have shoe mines around? NJH: Some shoe mines and some artillery pieces that came in that were Dutch. They're still there. For instance, this time I went back. I was over there in May for four weeks. I spent a week and a half, walking the front lines. I still found the holes, some of the foxholes. Very interesting to go back and look. Of course, that's fifty years ago. The trees have grown up. Now, it's a heavy forest. I can know areas where it was cleared off. Now there's trees all over. DES: That's interesting because that's not what you usually what you . . . [interrupted by end of tape Side 1] When you all moved on March 15, 1945, you continued up the Rhone valley? NJH: No, we were out of the Rhone valley when we entered Lyon, France. We got there mid-October. Then, we went across and hit what is known today as the Alsace-Lorraine area. Alsace-Lorraine area is part of France that during the war, see there were wars there in Europe for ages. The Alsace-Lorraine area, the people there all speak French and German fluently. DES: They went back and forth. The Franco-Prussian Wars. NJH: That's right. You know right what I'm talking about. These people are bilingual because they have to. We went into Luxembourg and then we turned south and went to Alsace-Lorraine area. On March 15th, we went through the Maginot Line. We went through the Sigfreid Line. The Sigfreid Line was about ten miles behind the Maginot Line and it was not as heavily fortified. They had a different concept. They did not go into the ground. They had a place where a platoon, 36 men, they would have a big shelter. When they were attacked, they would go out, spread out, and go into the positions they had manned. They actually had dug in positions. We went in the Sigfreid Line. DES: That was an engaged battle, to conquer the Sigfreid Line? NJH: It was an engaged battle and it took about a day and a half to go through. That's where the border is to go through Germany. We went through the Sigfreid Line and we went toward Kaiserslautern. We crossed the Rhine River. We went across in boats. We had to fight across that to Mannheim. At Mannheim, we turned south and attacked at Heilbron. We had a terrible battle at Heilbron. We went down to the Stuttgart area and we went across to Ohm. And, we went to Augsburg. At Augsburg, the army penetrated and we had the Germans on the run. They were collapsing now. They were just disintegrating. We were pinched out. A division came from the north and a division came from the south. We were pulled back. That's when we started occupying. DES: What year was that? NJH: That's in May of '45. DES: You all began to occupy the territory that you conquered? NJH: That's right. The first part of May is when the Germans gave up and we started occupying and I had an area of about 35 square miles. My company was spread all over. We were periodically being moved to another area, another area, another area. Then in August of '45, we were put in a German Concern. That's a big barracks area. From August of '45 till September, we were there. Then, I was transferred out to Frankfurt to Eisenhower's Honor Guard Regiment. I stayed with that regiment for about a year. Then, they took that regiment and moved it to the Bremen area, called the Bremen Enclave. That was a British area but we had the ports there and America controlled that area. I was up there for about 4 months. DES: After the Germans surrendered and your company was given 35 square miles to police, occupy, what was that like? NJH: We lived inside of houses. Take the best house in the neighborhood and moved the people out. All the men had beds. We had cleans linens. We could shower every day. We had very good rations because sometimes we would see 12 or 14 chickens and we would liberate them. DES: "Liberating" was what? NJH: [Laughter] We lived well. When you occupied, you lived very well. That was in the Swabishgumund area and the Black Forest area. There were all kinds of apples and pears. Lots of fruit. So we lived well. DES: What was the state of the people around you? NJH: At the time we thought, "someone's crazy." But, we made the people at night, no Germans could be out. If they did, we had the right to shoot them. Very strict curfews. The area I was in was a farming area. They had what was called Triple Daylight Savings Time. As a result, it was light at 3 o'clock in the morning. It would get dark at four or five o'clock in the afternoon. The farmers would get out as soon as daylight. We didn't check them because we didn't care. In the cities, they still had a curfew, but they allowed the people to go to work, the ones who had jobs. There was so much to do. They had to repair the bridges. They had to repair the roads. They had to repair the houses. The water system was all torn up. The electric system. A lot of towns did not have electricity. DES: Did the people in the community adjust to Americans? Did they put up resistance? NJH: No, there was no resistance after the war. There wasn't anybody getting mysteriously shot or anything like that. They were very receptive to us. From the end of the war to about . . . from May til about June or July, they had non-fraternization. The guys could not go out and meet a German girl. Anything. DES: This is the American troops or the German? NJH: We could not fraternize with the Germans. They enforced that. In about June or July, they lifted this and we were able to associate with them. As the head of that 35 square mile area, I acted as the Burgermeister. In other words, I was the controlling person in that area. That's before the military government got in. I had my office in the same office as the mayor of the city or town. When I would go out on a patrol, say I had a platoon over here five miles away and I had another one over here, ten miles away, when I'd go out on those trips, I would take the Burgermeister with me because most of them spoke pretty good English. DES: The Burgermeister was the mayor of the town? NJH: That's right. We would go out and he would see what is going on, etc. And he would help in a lot of cases where we would have disagreements, etc. Another neat thing. This is real neat. We would take coffee, we would take sugar, and he knew the guys that won decorations for raising the best sheep and the best pigs. He would contact them two or three days before ahead and we would have food prepared by the German people. That was top-notch. We would take the sugar to the ice cream maker and give him the sugar, and they would make ice cream for the company. Our mess hall used that. We had all kinds of different arrangements like that. One time, they had a lot of men in the company that liked fish. We got the game warden for the area. He made us pay for the fish. It was just a modest amount. But, we had rainbow trout. They raised rainbow trout in little farms. We had 35 to 40 fish and we had fish that way. DES: After your occupation in that 35 square mile zone, you joined Eisenhower's Honor Guard. What was that and what were your experiences there. NJH: I was sent in the division when I left in August to this Honor Guard Regiment. During the war, I was not promoted to Captain. The regimental commander in the division where I was said, you're going to stay in the army. You should be promoted because, as a company commander, you never got promoted as long as you were living or weren't injured too bad because you knew the company, this was part of staying alive. Two months after I went up there, I was made a major. I worked in the headquarters of the Regiment. The S2 and the S4 left, so I was the S2 and the S4. What I did up there was run the supply and the intelligence part for the Regiment. A regiment has 3 battalions and a heavy weapons outfit. DES: Were there any personal experiences you want to relate about that? NJH: It was plush, really plush. Not only were we guarding, but Eisenhower had his own cow. DES: So Eisenhower's Honor Guard was the battalion that surrounded Eisenhower a General? NJH: As a regiment, that's right. DES: And you protected him at all times? NJH: Supposedly, yeah. He didn't need the protection, but we had people in armored cars that would go back and forth. We had all the checkpoints in Frankfort, that we manned. We had all the people stationed at this I. G. Farben building. That's another thing, before we ever even got into Germany, and all the bombing. There were certain areas, for instance Heidelberg, that never had a bomb dropped on it. The I. G. Farben building, which was Eisenhower's headquarters, was never bombed. It was left intact. A few bullets hit the side of the building. But there were certain areas like that. The same is true in Japan and in the Far East. They took certain buildings and they were not to be bombed. DES: You talked earlier about working in Africa. NJH: I did not fight in Africa. I had been in Africa. DES: What were your other experiences because you stayed in the Army, in Europe occupying Europe, for how many years? NJH: Three years. For instance, they had R&R, which was recreation and recuperation. I made trips to Switzerland, which had never been bombed, beautiful country. I went to Africa. We used to go to a club at night and Eisenhower's pilots, C-47's, had 3 or 4 of 'em. They would take off on these trips. I became friendly with them. They would say, "We're going to Africa tomorrow. Can you get away?" I'd say, "I'll check." I'd check and I' go down to Africa, or fly to Rome, or fly to Spain. I was able to see Europe for practically nothing. We lived very highly. Very plush. That's the kind of experiences that I had in Frankfort. DES: Will you describe the artifacts that you have here for the tape? NJH: We have flags, ceremonial flags, SS flags, headquarters flags. We had shoes from the mountain troops. We have Rommel's underwear, and some of Rommel's personal stationery. A piece of German propaganda. We have a piece of German propaganda, and some German decorations. Some German collar ornaments. We have those three rounds that were made of wood and some made of paper. DES: Do you want to describe that really quick, a fascinating story. NJH: These were used against us in a battle where they had us surrounded. They used wood bullets and paper bullets because they did not want to give them good, high powered ammunition. And these were used by the young boys in training. At the time, it sounded like it may be foolish to use that. But now as you look back, if one of those wooden or paper bullets hit you, they could not find it with a magnet and it would infect. You were libel to loose an arm. Tactically, it was very good. It did not have long range to it, about 100 yards and that was it. But, in a counter attack and a surrounding attack like that, they could fire completely across our area, and they did not have to worry about hitting their other military. DES: When and how did you decide to stay in the army? NJH: I came back on R & R for a month to the states. The United States was in a state of flux. All the military were getting out. They were looking for jobs. I was a little bit undecided what area I wanted to go into. So, I stayed in the service. I took the test to stay in over in Europe. I went to Heidelberg. That's where they gave the test to be recognized and to qualify for the regular army, they just didn't give it to you., an Army commission. DES: Even after you fought in the war? NJH: In fact, that didn't entitle you to stay in the regular army. There is a reserve, a National Guard, and a regular army. The regular are, supposedly, are the real soldiers. I had to take a test and I passed it. I was a major then. I stayed in for 26 years. These are dog tags. They must be on a chain, there are two of them. They are identical. This you wear around your neck. When they have you dead on the field, they'll take one of those off as a matter of record. They take the other one . . . they'll take your rifle and put it up on the bayonet with the helmet up there. They'll leave one dog tag with the body. When we went oversees, we all thought, "Why are they giving us a mattress cover to put in our paraphernalia." What they did to start off with, they put the body in your mattress cover. That was the coffin you carried mobilely with you. Right now, they have plastic body bags. But then, they just took the mattress cover out and put the body in there. You carried your own coffin, so to speak. DES: That's your serial number? That was your mother's name? Is that Type O blood. The "P" stands for Protestant? Is it correct that they didn't list "J' if you were Jewish? NJH: Yes. I had a lot of Jewish men. I had a boy who was Jewish that was a clerk. He more or less sent a lot of the Jewish boys to my company because we had a number of Jews. Every time I see this one guy, Mosquevich, he had a big store in Nashville . . . He says he threw his dog tags away because he said if I was Jewish I didn't want to be identified [through the last name]. DES: Did you have any experiences with any of the German atrocities that were being committed at the time? Did your company come across any of the camps? The concentration camps? NJH: No, I went to the Concentration Camps long after the war. I never saw them first hand. [The remainder of the tape is casual conversation of Mr. Heuberger showing the interviewer his medals and artifacts]

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