[START TAPE 1, SIDE A]

Angela Reeder: OK, we're going to start now. ( ) you were born.

Joe Harris: OK, I'm Joe Harris, and I was born in Ybor City and reared in Ybor City. I went to elementary school ( ) in Ybor City. I attended Booker T. Washington Junior High School and Middleton Senior High School. I graduated Florida A&M University. I served in the military as an enlisted man and as--, and an officer. And I worked in education as a teacher for several years, and I had been in retail, and I have been in the health care industry for the past 24 years.

AR: OK, tell us about growing up in the time of segregation. How was it for you and your family? ( )?

JH: Well, most ( ) that they always separate everything- separate water fountains, separate bathrooms, if you had them. ( ) went on knowing why we had those. ( ) white water and colored water. It seemed like white water was always cooler; hooked up to an electric water cooler, whereas the colored was always just a little fountain, if they had it. But I guess I didn't ( ). There wasn't much, I guess, difference, I remember, because here again, I grew up, was born and reared, was born and reared in a segregated society, so I had nothing else to compare it with. You know, I knew that people lived in other places and all.

Of course, all of my experiences were in my own neighborhood, basically- it was all black. And I went to all-black schools. And I always used to notice when I used to pass white schools, and often wondered why I couldn't attend those schools. I often even wondered when I was in high school why kids who lived in Port Tampa had to pass about three high schools to find the local one. Also, the children who lived out in Thonotosassa and areas also had to pass several schools to come to high school. So those were the kinds of things that, you know, I noted most. I don't think I had any real, early experience outside of that. But I, I don't recall anything negative happen to me, even though I had seen things happen to other people by ( ) by whites- abuses.

Or you talk to people--. I can recall going in the grocery store. And I can recall [Chuckle] the man in the grocery store was a friend of mine--, my mom--, mother, who is my adopted mother and nanny. And I knew that they always called grown men "boys," and some of them were boys themselves. So I remember those ( ), but you know, being a ( ) of one person myself, you know, I really thought that was normal. I didn't--. I guess it didn't register then until I became more of an adult. You know, I had other experiences to compare it with.

AR: Did that bother you a lot or, like, when did you start noticing--? I know you noticed it right about when you went into college.

JH: Well, I was in the military from, you know--. I was in the military ( ) totally integrated society, and then I guess I started realizing how it had been. I went in the military when I was just--, just had turned seventeen years old, so I was still a very young person. And it was just a whole different world, being really in a totally integrated, you know, society.

But here again, I think that's when I realized about segregation more than any other time in my life, because I can recall getting in the military, going off the military reservation, having to go to the back of the bus, having to go to all-black places, not being allowed in any white restaurants ( ) basic training and ( ). I can recall being with white guys on the bases- even off the base. That was a no-no. So I guess then is where you realize that--, how bad segregation was.

I can recall on the troop train from Fort Jackson, South Carolina to Fort Pleasant, Louisiana ( ) Louisiana. And I recall getting off the train in Shreveport, Louisiana, where all the ( ) on the train, white and black troops. Once we got down to Shreveport, we all got off to have lunch. And I can recall all the white soldiers were escorted to the front of the restaurant, and all the black troops were in the kitchen, ( ) to get the meat.

So you know, I can recall, I can recall being an officer in the military, being a first lieutenant. And I was sent to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, when they were having integration problems there. And I was a first lieutenant, and I had a young Jewish ( ), my jeep driver, who used to have to go in the restaurant to get me something to eat. Here I was, I was an officer and a gentleman in the United States Army, and I couldn't even find a restaurant. ( ) about nineteen years old, and he just wanted to get food for me. So ( ) segregation.

AR: ( ) experience in the military? ( )?

JH: Well, mainly, I went in the military the first time ( ) when I joined is because I knew I wanted to go to college, and I knew there was no way I was going to be able to go to college. Got out of high school. So when I finished high school, I joined the army, because I knew they had the G.I. Bill. And I knew if I stayed in the army, once I got out, it would be ( ) for the G.I. Bill, and I can't go to college. And that was my main incentive for going. And I'm glad I did that, because it was, I don't know, a wake-up call; kind of got me pointed in the right direction and--, discipline-wise, and--. So ( ) a mechanism that can help to assure that I will go to college.

AR: OK. So after you did your, your year of ( ) in the military, did you go to college?

JH: Yes. Mm hmm.

AR: What did you ( ) major in?

JH: Political science. I, I majored in political science. Actually, I ( ) about going to college. I went to college in the '60s. And in going to college, I knew even then-- in the mid-'60s-- that the, that the field was very limited, and the work you could do once you got out of, out of college, what kind of job you could get. You know, traditionally, you knew that once we gone on to college ( ) be a teacher, preacher, or one who goes to a graduate school- you know, a doctor, or a lawyer, or something like that. So I, I had decided I wanted to be a lawyer, so I was a political science major ( ).

However--. And I look back, I--, my interest was really on education, because I knew--. Matter of fact, I had a calling ( ) wind up being a teacher. However, my junior year, I took a--, I joined advanced ROTC, because I was a veteran, since I joined advanced ROTC. And now I'm commissioned ( ) the military. So my major kind of didn't play a, play a part in it, I don't believe. I accepted that I was going to remain in the military. And that was really going to be my career. That's, that's what I had thought. So basically, ( ) I needed to know things about that I could utilize once I got up ( ).

AR: I want to touch back on your military experience, and how did you live with segregation. ( ) had separate restaurants ( )?

JH: No, no. ( ) on a military reservation whether it was going to be integrated. However, once you left the military reservation, it was no different than if you were living in Mississippi or anywhere else during the '50s. I was there during the '50s, and once you're off the base, it was just like you were ( ). You had to adhere to Jim Crow rules and laws of segregation. Once you were back on the base, and then you integrate.

AR: How did other officers of different race treat you? Did they treat you the same, or was it ( )?

JH: I don't know, but I was pretty well--, pretty much treated on an even keel. I didn't suffer any over privileges, as I can recall, ( ). But I truly ( ), I have to say, as an officer. Mm hmm.

AR: OK. During that time, when you were going back to school-- college--, were blacks allowed to attend white universities, or were they taught ( )?

JH: Actually, when I got out of the military, I wanted to go to the University of Florida development ( ); that was my first choice. And Florida A&M--. I guess they had one other school in Florida- in Jacksonville, I think ( ). So you only had one choice- either go to A&M, or you went out of state. And you really--, you were very limited.

AR: How did that make you feel?

JH: Mad. [Chuckle]

AR: Do you think that--. You were talking about how, like, the different majors ( ). Do you think you may have received the same education as compared to the white schools?

JH: Back in--. I think it was comfortable in college, but certainly not in high school and, and below. As I can recall, even in, even in high school, throughout elementary and junior high school, I can recall having inferior books. I recall we would get the books from Hillsborough High School, because you could see kids' names still in there, and stamped in there, and written in. We'd get all hand-me-down books and ( ). I can recall at Middleton, at--, in the lab, I think they had one microscope that everybody had to share. Whereas, if I had been at Plant, Hillsborough, or Jefferson High School, I'm sure they had a complete lab.

So at that point, I think building a basic foundation--. I think, you know, white children got an equal start, but the playing field's still not level. But it was supposed to be fair, but it never is. You know, I think it just continues to be.

AR: When you came out of college, was it hard for you to find a job?

JH: No, your, your grandmother hired me right off [Laughter]. ( ) Miss Dora Reeder right off. As soon as I got out in the spring I think, at the beginning of summer, she hired me, and I waited until August or September when we had to go, so--. So, no- teaching jobs were easier to get- much easier.

AR: I wanted to ask you about that, too. You mention that you ( ) college, and then you went back ( ).

JH: Right.

AR: What were your reasons for going back? ( )?

JH: Well, I got permission, and I was obligated [Chuckle] to go back, and I wanted to go back. ( ) commission when you finish all of the teaching, you're committed to serve at least two years.

AR: Did you experience any of the war during your time?

JH: No, I escaped the Vietnam War. I was right there, but I kind of escaped it.

AR: ( ) 1945 was the year ( )?

JH: ( ). [Laughter]

AR: Let's talk about segregation now. Do you think ( ) better before?

JH: Well, we live in, in probably two real segregated societies: one of them being housing-- residential-- and in the other being religion. I think even the ( ) segregation for what it used to be, having to look around at your housing, and look around at your churches. ( ) one of the most segregated towns in America.

AR: How do you, how do you feel about schools separate--, segregating low income kids from the white kids? Do you think ( ) education, or is it about politics? What are your--?

JH: Well, I never ( ) about economics; I never did that. I thought it was about ( ) bunch of kids. So if you lived in the projects, [Laughter] obviously ( ) same as if you live in Carrollwood. But I think it's, it's good, considering that any and all people economical backgrounds to get together, to learn from each other. I think that's a good type of diverse situation for them to be in. However, I think it's unfair to bus all the children to all the projects; I feel horrible, and--, at five o'clock in the morning. But I think the experience of good ( ) all races can learn together.

AR: ( ). You started out with ( ). Is it ( ) opportunities for blacks? ( ) jobs?

JH: Well, no doubt in my mind there's more, because I think that any person, regardless of their race or gender, can get a good job if they prepare themselves. And the opportunity is out there. When I came along and went to school, there was no Pell grants, or corporate grants, or--, very few scholarships. Now, the only reason a person never get an education now is because they don't want to get one. And the only person--, only reason a person can't get a good job is because they don't got the skills for it. And the opportunities are there. So ( ) when I grew up, ( ) as opposed to now, are just a world apart. Opportunities ( ).

AR: So they're the same?

JH: Absolutely much, much more. Much, much more opportunities.

AR: OK, let's talk about leadership ( ). ( ) leadership development. ( ) blacks stick together, and now it's like you're not ( )?

JH: ( ). Yeah, that's ( ) back together ( ) civil rights movement right here stuck together. The church was the focal point. ( ). People came together from different races. We all came together, and we didn't ( ), you know. We came together. And the Martin Luther King leadership was a peaceful demonstration. ( ) running all the riots and shut down all the ( ). Black people getting involved in ( ) [Chuckle] people.

But ( ) lack of leadership back in the community. As you said, the emphasis is now on how much, how much can I get for me. You know, and it's all about me, and that's what ( ) missing in America now. It's saying that as far as black leadership, you have the NAACP, which is ( ) on the street ( ) probably a decade. The other organization is doing so much in-fighting, I don't see anything that they're doing.

So you need that to gain ( ) get together and decide what kind of country they want because right now, everybody's ( ), and nobody's pulling together and say, "We must get together, and get this country back in line." We have ( ) running the country. He's telling everybody what to do and how to do it. And everybody is just going along, like ( ). There is a clear lack of leadership in the black community. The black churches are not out in front- the pastors who used to be out there, bringing us back together under the leadership of some civil rights organizations, are not doing that anymore.

The church is in a, I guess, prosperity moment, and prosperity ( ) getting prosperous. But for the masses, there's just not any leadership being shown. And until we do, I think we're going to have the same kind of situation ( ) right after slavery during reconstruction. I see too many head of households which are the mother, with seven or eight children. The children are disrespectful, disrespect the mother, no father image, no father figure image, no male role model ( ). ( ) all out there, all jewel, gold teeth, they're out selling drugs and all that; that's the only role model. And so until we can ( ) children ( ) some of them work and go to school and all, I think you got another lost generation coming up. And it's all lack of leadership.

AR: Were you involved in any organizations--

JH: Yes.

AR: --when you started--, when you first started going to school, or did you try to get involved in organizations to help the community?

JH: I, I probably did that later rather than sooner. [Laughter] But because ( ) that they were there, so I, I was not--. For example, the NAACP, I, I don't know if I was a member. One of the reasons I wasn't a member in the NAACP because I recall when I was in college, they had NAACP on one of the lists of--. I can't remember. But it was so long ago- so they had the Communist Party, the Ku Klux Klan, and all of them.

I never would join that because I could not have been commissioned in the military. I do remember that. So I, I don't recall the organizations being available, or my community being available when I was much younger. I do know they had the NAACP back then, but that's the only real organization that I can remember when I was a boy that was around.

AR: What do you feel that young people can do now to help better prepare themselves for the future, as far as getting opportunities, not having ( )? ( ) organizations will help them?

JH: Yeah, not only will they, but they can do a lot- become members of organizations. Organizations do a lot more networking. Networking also is the key to helping themselves ( ) equal opportunity. And once you ( ), one thing you need ( ) is to bring someone else along with you. When you go to an organization, try to get somebody that can look off you ( ) organization also, once you get into the position that you can do that.

So, you know, that's, that's the key too, now. Also ( ) participate in some of the other fellow civic organizations; the NAACP is not the only one. There are a lot more, in fact. There are ( ) fraternities, sororities, and they can have projects to do that- projects to help children, scholarship projects, alumni associations. I'm a member of my alumni association, which we raise money for scholarships. One of the main projects is to provide scholarships to students in the--, to go to junior college. When I attended high school, we had an alumni association that raised scholarships specifically for African-American students to go to junior college out of high school, and kind of jump-start them into college. ( ) run off to a four-year college all the time.

AR: ( ) the enrollment in college for black college students- is that higher than it was at the time ( )?

JH: Oh yes, mm hmm. In all, all, basically black colleges, enrollment's almost doubled from the time I was at A&M to now. ( ) through Tuskegee ( ). Almost all of the black colleges' enrollment are double. Yeah, you know, you know that the students have an opportunity to go to other colleges. Black colleges are just--, have gotten that much better, and they are preferred.

AR: Let me ask you a question. ( ), or do they just want to be with their own kind, and we would be, you know, ( ) the respect that we needed in life?

JH: I think it's a matter of preference, as opposed to anything else, you know, because we've got so many different universities. It's a preference, and I think that young people go to school-- the black school-- because that's their preference. However, you did hit on a point, and I think that you do have more recognition.

And you know, at most black colleges, you're not just a number in an auditorium of 350 students in a classroom sitting up there, and you're just a number. I think you have more individualized attention in, in small black colleges. ( ) South Florida ( ) classroom, you know what I'm saying, it was like a stadium, almost. It must've been at least 200 people; everybody was a number! You go to, like, Tuskegee or A&M, professor know you, and you know the professor.

AR: ( ) that if--, talking about, like--. They say it's segregated, but then you have different parents ( ). You have your private or your Catholic schools, and ( ). And then you have the, you know, black kids going to their own black schools. And then they don't want to say, "OK, all you Catholic schools ( ) separate from everybody." They don't want to interact. They all want--, you know, they want to blame this side and not blame the other side.

JH: That's true. And, and you know, it--. I look at it the same way when, when, you know, I guess, when you have your parochial schools--. I think, like now, when they're talking about being--, having voucher programs and all, it, it--. When blacks want to put up a school, and then they're going to say, "Do you want to go back to re-segregating society?"

However, like you say, people in parochial schools been doing it all the time. So nobody saying anything. ( ) forward, but [Pause] I don't like to answer that question. It's just that society's like that, you know. When we do something, it's wrong. When they do it, it's OK; they have an excuse for the reason why it's done.

AR: Let's talk about ( ). Did you go back to the military, or…?

JH: No, I started working, and then I left to go into retailing. I left, left teaching. Teaching--. The reason why I left teaching, I guess--. Well, the main reason is money. It just--, there's no money in tea-- [END OF TAPE 1, SIDE A] [START TAPE 1, SIDE B]

JH: I had an opportunity to go into retailing, and I ( ) recruited and hired by Maas Brothers. And then, executive training program. As a matter of fact, I was the first black person in Maas Brothers' executive training program. So that's how I got out of teaching, and I stayed in retailing for another, I guess, almost ten years. And then ( ), by being ( ) went on to serve as assistant manager. ( ) I had an opportunity ( ) hospital. ( ) hospital as a medical social worker, and ( ). [Chuckle]

AR: Let's talk about your job for a minute. ( ) where are you working; what do you do? What are your ( )?

JH: OK, well, like, I worked, I worked mainly for the first eleven or twelve years as a senior medical social worker. I worked with patients and their families, and--, by that time. And then I was promoted to the affirmative action office for the hospital, and then to ER office for the hospital.

And my job mainly in the hospital is to ensure that all persons ( ). My job is to watch the, the complaints and discrimination that ( ) hospital. My job is to defend the hospital against those charges. And we do that all ( ) mediation ( ) court setting. So basically, you know, my job is to try and resolve particular ( ) employees have of any acts of major discrimination.

AR: Do you like ( )?

JH: Very much. You know, actually, I'm retired. I retired in 1958, and I stayed retired for four months, and they called me back about five years ago, and--. [Laughter] ( ) 1994; sorry, 1994 I retired. And ( ) four months. And they called me back, and I've been out there ever since. ( ) quite a bit.

AR: Was Tampa General ( )?

JH: Oh, no, Tampa General--. No, Tampa General has been here since 1927. However, we, as black folks, were not allowed to come here. I was born in ( ) Hospital, which was in West Tampa. And we ( ), we ( ) at the hospital had taken away in the hospital, and ended up at this ( ), who built that hospital. So, we, we had our own separate hospital. We had ( ). When I was growing up, we had three black hospitals. ( ), ( ), and we had a small hospital in Ybor City. I can't even remember the name of it. But we were not allowed at Tampa General until about 19--, ( ) 1965, if I remember correctly, someone told me. I wasn't here then.

But, but I enjoy working there immensely. It's a very good profession- the medical field. ( ) I'd like to see more and more kids go there- the field of medicine. There are a whole lot of other things to do beside being a doctor and a nurse. You had all kinds--. Any kind of position you could think of, we had it, you know. [Chuckle]

AR: ( ) talk about your experience, and just how much you had to overcome through motivation ( )?

JH: Well, I ( ) come a long way in ( ), especially the opportunities for all our citizens. I think we done very well in housing. We still, until a few months ago, had somewhat dilapidated housing projects in ( ) Heights ( ) when I used to camp there as a boy going to the military. We still got dilapidated housing projects in Central Tampa. It's still there; still got the dilapidated housing projects in West Tampa ( ). I remember when I was a little boy, we used to pass through that.

So, so we haven't done very well when we talk about providing decent residency for our citizens. We haven't done very well there. I think that's changing. They've torn down some of those, and I think they're going to, they're going to do better by that. But opportunities for employment--, certainly a lot better jobs. African-Americans are there now; it's unheard of, back when I was young.

Here again, being born in the middle of Ybor City, we didn't have what I call them--. The part of town, the part of Ybor City I lived in ( ) really that segregated. Had Italians on one side, maybe, and the Cubans on the other. So incredible mixing, sort of a salad bowl there in Ybor City, as opposed to some of the other parts of town. But I think Tampa- we've done real well in some areas, but housing is one of the worst. ( ) good housing for our citizens, ( ) still got a long way to go.

AR: Now are you saying ( ) now?

JH: Yes. Yeah, the city itself has definitely improved. It's grown; it's a metropolis now, you know. It's really grown ( ). But it's grown, you know what I mean. There's a lot of opportunities for people here without having to leave, you know. A lot of companies are coming in- plenty of jobs, you know, jobs that pay fairly well. ( ) Atlanta somewhere and Miami, they have to make a decent salary, but I think that's changed. And certainly the opportunities ( ) that do come in are better than before.

AR: OK. And do you think, do you think there's still a little segregation in Tampa?

JH: Yeah, there is. Well, there's segregation on housing. You know, ( ) still here. And I don't think that's going to change ( ) global networks everywhere. So you know, that's not unique to Tampa. Still, who you know and who you don't know- that's still part of our problem. But overall, it's a good place to live.

AR: What are some of the things you would like to see change in Tampa and among black ( )?

JH: I'd like to see more entrepreneurship among blacks. We feel the people just let others take over our businesses and all. We used to have viable businesses all over, particularly on Central Avenue- had black businesses, and parlors, and funeral homes, beauty shops, and stores, movie theatres, and even motels in Tampa. We've let people come and take that away from us. I, I'd like to see us get back ( ) entrepreneur.

We, we cannot be--. You know, ( ) spending, you'll always be better. You got to get out there and make some of the money yourself- keep the money in the community. We used to have neighborhood grocery stores, and now all those are all gone- owned by blacks. Now we just let another whole culture come in and take over our community. Even the beauty shops, supply places- all are run by Asians. There are people coming in from Korea, China, Japan, India, Pakistan. They're taking over all the stores and all of the convenience stores, they're taking over all of the motels, they're taking over all of the beauty shops, they're taking all over even, even things that we used to be good at- all of the nails shops, now, taken over Asians. Next thing, they'll taking over beauty shops. [Laughter]

So that's what we, we're going to have to do. We're going to have to do far more selling instead of being all buyers. ( ) we've got to learn again how to be entrepreneurs. And that's something that we've lost. And we got to be entrepreneurs, and we got to support each other as, as they support each other.

AR: Have you had any other experience about Tampa that you'd like to add?

JH: No, I think that, that's, ( ). Like I said again, it's a good place. We've had people who I know that left here in the '50s, '60s, '70s, who went north who are coming back because opportunities now, here in ( ), in some cases, are much better than the opportunities than they left before. I know ( ) New York, Washington and all- now they're returning. And they're coming back, you know, in our community. And a lot of people who left and retired are coming back to Tampa. People in the military ( ) who retired are staying here.

So there must be something positive happening here. And I think Tampa, like any other city, has its growing pains. We need more people, and ( ) better than now. And that's something that we, as a group, can get together and do. We, we register to vote, you get out and vote, and you can have a voice. So, and basically, that's kind of the way I see it. You know, I can--. I've always liked Tampa, didn't have to live here, still don't have to live here. You know, I chose to live here by choice. So I think, you know, there's a lot better than there used to be, but as you say, it's a long way to go, and can get a lot better.

AR: ( ) talking about the Asians and ( ). ( ) by the year 2025--

JH: Right.

AR: --( ) the Hispanics, Asians, African Americans, that they will be the majority--

JH: Right.

AR: --and that white Caucasians will be the minority.

JH: Right.

AR: Do you think ( ), that opportunity ( ) more businesses, or are things going be, you know, more available to us, or you know, are they still gonna look at us the same, or…? Are we still going to be the minority?

JH: We'll be in the minority--. We'll be the minority of the majority. That the, if the, if the, if people of color are going to be the majority, then we'll be the minority in our class, because we just been slow to react.

AR: So we're at the bottom.

JH: Right. Right.

AR: And so in order to get to the top, leadership is going to be the key to get to the top.

JH: Right. Leadership and, and, in all areas- political, community-wise, and all. We just, we got to, we got to form a coalition, or we're going to still be at the bottom of the barrel, pulling each other back down.

AR: ( )?

JH: Because they have not had continued leadership ( ) there's been a big gap in why we vote. There, there's been no one who has continued to show why--, people coming up how important it was to fight for the right to vote, how many people died just to get the right to vote. There's been no consistency in, in keeping that message in front of them. So--. And ( ) they can go to any movie they want, they can go to any school they want. They think, "That's the way it is, the way it's always been." ( ) how you got there, and no one has kept that in front of them. Until, until something happens where we realize how important it is for us to get out and vote, you know, we going to still miss the boat on that.

We got--, we--, the pictures--. There's no continuity in how we got the way we are. Once we lost--. When Martin Luther King was out there, and ( ) the way he brought people together, that they let people know how important it is to do this, how important it is to do that, why we do this, why we do that, and what we get, and what's the end result, and you're going to have to go along ( ) to achieve something. And we just ( ) stopped doing that now. ( ) for survival, as opposed to ( ), just keeping up. The NAACP ( ) for all of this ( ), all of this leadership ( ).

It just goes to show ( ) now and before, there's no ( ) to replace the people ( ). ( ) are not getting their ( ) trainees or interns, or whatever you have. When the person dies out, the movement dies out. So there's just no continuity. You, you take right now, in ( ) Board of Directors of the NAACP, ( ) the few people in there fighting. But there's only a few, and there's only a few things that they can do. Got Sam Horton fighting ( ) [Chuckle], but he's almost up there alone. And right now, you know, you make, you make one goal--, one step forward, one step back.

You have the NAA--, the ( ) program ( ) trying to help black business owners get business with the city. Now they're trying to weaken that. That Sam Horton is only one out there I see is fighting to try and not let that happen. Politicians now, we got one poli--, one political person- all I heard that person say was, "It won't happen on my watch." Well, I don't see anything ( ) prevent it from happening.

( ) Sam Horton in the paper today, trying to keep from diluting the program. So, you know, but ( ) must be seventy-( ) years old. He's the one old man [Laughter] ( ). He says he's had all the business--, black people business people in Tampa to come down to City Hall, and talk to the mayor, and tell the mayor, "Mayor, this is a program ( ), because ( ) not going give it to ( ). They're going to give it to somebody who look like him. ( )."

We do maybe $100 million in business a year, buying. We buy everything in this organization ( ) from toilet paper, right up the line, to high-tech million dollar technical equipment. We don't have anybody here ( ) making sure that black business will get part of that business. ( ), but I say this, nobody is out there helping them and showing them what they need to do to come in-- this organization-- and get the business that's here.

We spend a lot of money. And then the city is trying to dilute the program, and it's working real well. We have to be certified, even ( ) certification of compliance from the city. And we comply by having a good mixed and diverse workforce. When they dilute that, then there's no telling--. If you're running a business right now as a woman, and you want to get benefits, if you don't know somebody buying there who ( ), then you won't get anything. ( ) give benefits to their buddies, and somebody that look like them. My ( ) happened here. ( ). [Laughter]

But that's the way it is, and, you know, if we don't have anybody in place, in position to protect our, our asset, to try and fight for us, they--, we're not going--, you're not going any further. You can do it individually, but you're not bringing anybody with you. And that's a shame, because the more people you bring along with you, the less taxes you should have to pay, because they're paying taxes instead of you paying taxes to help them. They become self-sufficient.

AR: ( ) leadership.

JH: Leadership, yes.

AR: ( ).

JH: Lack of, or lack thereof. [Laughter] ( ) for what it is; you just don't have any leaders.

AR: OK.

[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2]

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[END OF TAPE 1, SIDE B]

(end of interview)